Untold Stories: Lennart Lopin From Buddhist Monk To Bitcoin Builder

On this week’s Untold Stories, Charlie and ByteFederal CTO Lennart Lopin tackle out-of-this-world topics like: Bitcoin and interplanetary commerce, Lennart’s life in communist East Germany, his life as a Buddhist monk, Blockchain helping capitalism achieve communism’s dream, ByteFederal’s ATMs offering more than just Bitcoin, and the promise of public blockchains.

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Charlie Shrem
Hey, everyone. This is Charlie Shrem, and you're listening to Untold Stories. This is a show where we dive deep into the lives and personal histories of some of cryptos most influential leaders and find out how the crypto movement truly came to be. Let's dive in. This podcast is presented by BlockWorks Group, the only blockchain event and media production company I trust. For exclusive content and events that provide insight into the crypto and blockchain space, visit them at blockworksgroup.io. I promise you won't be disappointed.

Charlie Shrem
Today is really special for me. It's the first time I'm actually going to be interviewing my guest here in the studio in lovely Florida. It's 100 degrees outside, though. It's super hot, and we're just actually chatting about what type of sports that we could do, because my next guest, Lennart, he's like, "Well, it's our wintertime now, because it's 100 degrees outside,. Maybe 40-45 degrees Celsius, and we just can't do anything." My next guest, Lennart Lopin, actually really good friend of mine, lives here in Florida. He is the Chief Technical Officer of ByteFederal, one of the largest bitcoin ATM companies in the United States. He is also the founder of Marscoin, an overall great guy, very interesting. Lennart, thank you for coming to the show today.

Lennart Lopin
Thanks, Charlie, for having me.

Charlie Shrem
I want to talk about Marscoin. You started Marscoin in 2013, and it's on Coin Market Cap. It's traded on exchanges. I don't own any, and so if I did, I'd have to say like, "Hey, guys, I own some Marscoin." Tell me about why did you do that in 2013?

Lennart Lopin
Yeah. I discovered bitcoin in 2011, and something strange happened around 2013 where I think people thought bitcoin might not be the only kid on the block. What about creating forks of bitcoin and some alternative versions? This was kind of the pre-ICO days, if you will. The first thing you could do in those days was just take the code of, in this particular case, Lightcoin very often.

Charlie Shrem
There was PiperCoin, Namecoin, Bitcoin.

Lennart Lopin
Yeah, right. It started out serious, right? Namecoin, and then all of a sudden you had these very strange coins that just seemed to be like a Marvel character and someone just slashed it on a coin.

Charlie Shrem
Like what?

Lennart Lopin
I don't know.

Charlie Shrem
AvengerCoin?

Lennart Lopin
At some point, I saw a MoonCoin. I thought, this is getting ridiculous.

Charlie Shrem
For my listeners to envision this, you go to 2012. You go to coinmarketcap.com. You're not going to see Ethereum.

Lennart Lopin
No.

Charlie Shrem
You're not going to see Tron or Tezos.

Lennart Lopin
Nothing. You're sitting on Bitcoin talk, for the most part, as the central information hub, and you're watching what the community is doing. All of a sudden there's Litecoin and people are starting to talk about it. Could this really be-

Charlie Shrem
People hated on Litecoin for a while.

Lennart Lopin
Oh yes. Oh yes. Well, some still do.

Charlie Shrem
Charlie Lee wasn't seen as a God amongst men as he is now.

Lennart Lopin
Right.

Charlie Shrem
I love you Charlie. Litecoin was seen as something like what's the point of it, right?

Lennart Lopin
Very controversial. Exactly, very controversial. You had some initial bitcoin maximalism, definitely, and the heated discussions, that the network effect of Bitcoin will not allow any other coin to exist. People still tried. I was very skeptical, if you will, but did enter discussions with a lot of my friends about, I'm a space enthusiast. I really love the idea of expanding mankind, colonizing other planets.

Charlie Shrem
We don't really have a choice, do we?

Lennart Lopin
I don't think we have a choice. If you start looking into it seriously, we can't be stuck on this rock forever. It's like putting all your eggs in one basket. It's just not a smart idea. Also, the positive aspect of colonizing, let's say for instance, Mars, creating an offspring of mankind, that will just be amazing for culture, technology, science. The thought that we had, and the discussion that we entered was; If you look at the history of how North America was colonized, it's really fascinating. That was, for the most part, private industry, or private enterprise. Where the ideas of shares comes from, people took a ship and split it into parts, into shares, in order to minimize the risk. They would sell shares of the ship that would take settlers over to United States.

Charlie Shrem
They weren't selling shares of land. They were selling shares of the ship?

Lennart Lopin
They were selling shares of the ship, because sending out a ship was a very risky endeavor. You wanted to spread the risk among a lot of participants.

Charlie Shrem
Yeah, the East India Trading Company or the Dutch East India Trading Company.

Lennart Lopin
Exactly. Right, and you had merchants of London and others. When America was discovered, and the first settlers wanted to move over there, the idea was; If we gather some funds together we can make this extremely expensive project happen. Everybody who buys into these shares, into the ship, and defacto buys a part of the future colony, will have a right, a stake if you will, in this future economic development.

Lennart Lopin
This piece of history is quite interesting and we know what happened after that; The blossoming of the United States, and the riches that poured into Great Britain partially because of that. Here was the idea; Why don't we take cryptocurrency and try a planetary fundraiser where we let everybody on the planet, not just the Wall Street broker, but everybody on the planet, take part in a coin, buy part of it, use it. The more people use it, the more the value of the initial stakeholders increases. We created Marscoin, and the idea was to donate 500,000 Marscoin, initially, to the Mars Society and the Mars One project, which at the time were the biggest proponents of Mars colonization and nonprofits. That was the idea. Generate this coin, hand over a big check, which we did in 2014, to both organizations.

Charlie Shrem
How much did you give them?

Lennart Lopin
500,000 Marscoin.

Charlie Shrem
Really?

Lennart Lopin
Yup. At that point that was basically 99% of all Marscoin that existed. The idea was that if people take this coin and start using it, the value might increase, just like we saw with Bitcoin at the time. The hopes were that these organizations would then be able to maybe do some studies or fund some little project and with a positive feedback loop, further increase the valuation and then maybe even make it possible to have a colony on Mars at some point.

Charlie Shrem
The idea was a social experiment basically.

Lennart Lopin
A social experiment. It was a social experiment, yes.

Charlie Shrem
The idea of an experiment is not always to succeed. It's just to create a hypothesis.

Lennart Lopin
Correct. To make people aware that crypto currencies allow a planet wide funding of very audacious goals.

Charlie Shrem
I feel like bitcoin is a social experiment too. It still very much is.

Lennart Lopin
It absolutely is. If you think about it, I never thought that other coins have a really easy chance supplanting bitcoin on planet earth. It was a different story for Mars.

Charlie Shrem
I don't think those are the goals of the actual coins, to actually overtake Bitcoin.

Lennart Lopin
No. Definitely not now. In those early days it was maybe, "Okay, maybe we can find something that is going to be better than bitcoin. We can experiment around." Since then we've seen that the network affect of an existing coin is pretty strong. If you think if we ever make it to Mars and setup a colony, there will probably be a bitcoin of Mars, a Mars coin.

Charlie Shrem
You don't think we can have the same coin?

Lennart Lopin
Well, the technical difficulties are such that you have a distance between Earth and Mars. It's between four minutes when the planets are very close, light speed. It is up to 40 minutes when they're far from each other. A protocol, an internet connection creating blocks over that distance wouldn't work. Mars would start its own bitcoin.

Charlie Shrem
That would be cool you'd have a Mars bitcoin.

Lennart Lopin
Correct.

Charlie Shrem
And an Earth bitcoin. You literally would be having atomic swaps across both.

Lennart Lopin
You could.

Charlie Shrem
Excuse me.

Lennart Lopin
After we started Marscoin there was a gentleman who came up. The community exploded. It was really interesting to see and it pulled in a lot of people who were interested in the cross section of space exploration and cryptocurrencies. There was one person I remember. He came up with this idea of an interplanetary coin. An interplanetary coin has a very, very slow block generation timeframe. There's basically exchanges on two planets where, let's say before you leave earth, you swap your bitcoin with this interplanetary coin. Then you hop on a Space X rocket. You fly over. Six month later you arrive on Mars. By the time maybe two or three blocks have confirmed your money over this interplanetary coin. Then you swap it back into the local Marscoin.

Charlie Shrem
While it's being confirmed it's time locked, basically, until your rocket ship lands.

Lennart Lopin
Something like that. It's just an initial idea, but it was fascinating to start thinking about commerce and trading between planets. Crypto currencies would make this possible.

Charlie Shrem
How else would you do it?

Lennart Lopin
How else would you?

Charlie Shrem
You'd have to rely on these centralized parties. The problem is that because moving data across from one planet to another planet is so slow and controlled by centralized party. Whereas now, the internet is relatively free that you literally need to rely on someone solving the Byzantine Generals problem, which was bitcoin, to trust the information that's coming into the other planets. The information is coming from one planet to another. How do you trust that, that data is real? For example, if you're on Mars and someone's writing you a letter on Earth, how do you know that, that letter is actually what the person wrote.

Lennart Lopin
No, that's absolutely true. Cryptocurrency, with the social experiment of Marscoin, was something where we could show that it solved a lot of very futuristic problems that may not be tackled for the next 50 years. The software solutions or ideas are there to play with and experiment with. That was quite a fascinating episode.

Charlie Shrem
You're playing with Marscoin. At this point had you been running ByteFederal?

Lennart Lopin
No. This is two years before ByteFederal. I had been trying other little projects, because I liked the ideas and technology of bitcoin. I'm a software engineer, that's my background. I developed a little meta-trader type trading desktop program that was focused on cryptocurrencies in about 2013 or 2012, very early. Also wrote an automated loan investment robot. If you remember BTC Gem?

Charlie Shrem
Sure.

Lennart Lopin
Yeah, BTC Gem was a hit.

Charlie Shrem
They all rely on the centralized companies. A lot of them ran away with their money.

Lennart Lopin
That was the problem. There were a lot of people who ran away. Part of the reason for writing these bots was to figure out which of the lonas were actually more trustworthy than others and have an automated system make those decisions.

Charlie Shrem
How did you tell? How did your bot or your algorithm tell which loans would be better than other loans?

Lennart Lopin
Well, I was looking at historic data on the platform and develop a trustworthiness [inaudible 00:11:22], a scale or a number metric, that would tell me I could trust it. They displayed the originating country, whether this person had a Facebook account or PayPal account linked. All these kinds of little pieces of information.

Charlie Shrem
Profiling.

Lennart Lopin
Yeah, profiling, in fact.

Charlie Shrem
Isn't profiling bad? Didn't we learn that profiling-

Lennart Lopin
Well, if you invest this one-

Charlie Shrem
Creditworthiness.

Lennart Lopin
Yeah, creditworthiness. That's pretty much what they tried to establish. These were people from Africa, Indonesia and India that were looking for microloans. It was a very interesting platform. Unfortunately it didn't last too long. It was fascinating to have this robot, basically while I was sleeping, invest on my behalf, or issue microloans to people in Africa trying to buy a couple more goats. For them it was a life changing event.

Charlie Shrem
What year was this?

Lennart Lopin
This was, I think, 2014, or 15.

Charlie Shrem
You're launching Marscoin to fund travel to Mars and colonization of Mars. You're loaning money for people to buy goats in Africa. What else were you doing?

Lennart Lopin
I had a regular software engineering job. These were projects in the evening. I worked also on another project where I tried to bring price transparency to the medical industry.

Charlie Shrem
Before you get into that I just want to talk about those early years, what we're talking about, and those things you did, were so important to the cultivation, or the discovery of what crypto is. Like you, there are a few dozen people doing the same type of things, with full knowledge. I'm sure you knew that the chances of actually this paying for, and actually pushing towards Mars colonization is very small, but that wasn't the point.

Lennart Lopin
Correct.

Charlie Shrem
The point was to create this social experiment, to create ideas and to make people's brains open up to the idea of crypto currency doing these other things. That's so important because we wouldn't be here today at all, we would not be here today, none of us would be in crypto, none of the listeners, none of you guys would be here today, if it weren't for guys like Lennart, doing all of these things in their spare time. That's why this is so important.

Lennart Lopin
Yeah, the space really exploded around us. The creativity that was unleashed by the thought of this White Paper of Satoshi, I think that was such a trigger, where all of a sudden you realized, you saw a future that's possible. Maybe it will happen in 500 years, who knows? 200.

Charlie Shrem
That's what a visionary is.

Lennart Lopin
A visionary, absolutely.

Charlie Shrem
A visionary is not someone who figures out step by step, by step. This is actually what the judge told me. Literally I'm being sentenced and the judge is telling me ... He's like, "Mr. Shrem, you're a visionary, but your problem is you don't think steps through. You go from step one to step ten." I'm thinking to myself, "That's what the definition of a visionary is." To his credit, he's right. In some respects, especially when it comes to other people's money or different laws, you have to think steps through.

Lennart Lopin
Yeah. This is fascinating, because we didn't have this kind of clash when the internet or software starting eating the publishing industry. Blogs came about. People were starting to do things that typically only a paid for journalist who was credentialed was allowed to do. When software started eating the music and film industry we did face a big pushback, right?

Charlie Shrem
Oh, sure.

Lennart Lopin
Here, for the first time, we had software starting to eat into governance and finance. That's, of course, a core of power in any state. Just like you said, also, dealing with other people's money is a much bigger risk factor than let's say writing a blog and some opinion. Of course, in some countries, you're not even allowed to do that. Yes, on the one hand you have all of a sudden software engineers and visionaries being able to see a future, that they could tinker with, or start to explore. Which upended, in many ways, the way things had been done for millennium. If you think about it, I always thought if we ever made it to Mars, for instance, this is a silly thought, but it's not too silly if you start thinking it through; There won't be any paper money on Mars, right? You don't have trees. You won't run around thinking-

Charlie Shrem
Why not? Why can't it be Mars cash?

Lennart Lopin
Well, you can plant some trees, but you would probably rather breath the air than cutting them down. The gold that you pull out of the ground will probably be used rather for industrial uses than printing or minting coins. Cryptocurrency, the ability to have computer codes, software, take care of institutional aspects, like voting, finance, insurance, titles, ownership, all of that, was a very, very powerful concept.

Charlie Shrem
Tell me about your backgrounds growing up. You have an accent. Most people realize that before 16 minutes into the show.

Lennart Lopin
Usually they realize it when I open my mouth. I'm like, "Really? Is that bad? I'm from-

Charlie Shrem
You're from North Florida, that's why.

Lennart Lopin
I'm from North Florida, that's correct. No, I'm originally from Germany, East Germany, actually. I was born on the other side.

Charlie Shrem
East Germany.

Lennart Lopin
East Germany. A long time ago-

Charlie Shrem
I know East Germany.

Lennart Lopin
No, I know. There's communism on the wrong side of the German border and that's where I grew up. I was born in 1978, when the Soviet Russia ruled with an iron fist. East Germany was behind the curtain. Those are my early years.

Charlie Shrem
What was that like, East Germany in 1970 something?

Lennart Lopin
Of course, I was young, but I do-

Charlie Shrem
Okay, but the 80s.

Lennart Lopin
Right. I do remember. It was gray. It was very monotone. I remember walking for a long time to this one supermarket with my mom. Everything was empty. Really, the shelves were empty. I was excited because I was going to get ice cream there. The ice cream, you have to imagine, there were two types of ice cream. These are like waffles. One was vanilla and the other one was chocolate. That was it. It was plain. It had just a white wrapper or so around it. The cars, of course, they were all these [foreign language 00:17:55], these old stinking-

Charlie Shrem
That was the height of communism?

Lennart Lopin
That was the height of communism, after 70 years of relentless innovation, in the communist's view.

Charlie Shrem
Now we look at communism back, and we say what a failure it was. Well, most people do. Growing up in it; Two questions. Did you realize, and what age did you realize that this system that we have running here is not working? That's first question. The second question is did you have friends growing up, or people, your parents friends, that actually did believe in communism? Nowadays we all think that everyone knew that communism was a bad idea, except the people that were at top, because they were the-

Lennart Lopin
Sheltered few.

Charlie Shrem
Yeah, the sheltered but did actually people believe in it?

Lennart Lopin
I think you had two types of people. You had the virulent, anti-communists, which were becoming less and less. Then you had the masses that didn't care. They just wanted to live and accept the status quo. Then of course, you had the party system with their spy. When we talk about the German Stasi, this police state, was actually incredibly sophisticated and extremely scary. This is the one thing I'd really like our listeners to also remember this. This was a very scary place to be alive, to walk around and have an opinion.

Charlie Shrem
What does that mean?

Lennart Lopin
Well, I'll give you an example. My dad, he found out in his 30s, that his dad was actually Austrian. He realized people couldn't leave the country. Once you were born there, except if you were a diplomat or something, you could not leave Eastern Germany, or high ranking business man, whatever.

Charlie Shrem
Or high ranking business man.

Lennart Lopin
For most people it was like a prison. When my dad realized he was actually partial Austrian he went to the embassy in East Berlin, the Austrian embassy, ran into it, basically distracting the German guards outside, ran into it and basically said, "You guys have to help me. You have to get me out of here." After that, for the next two years the German-

Charlie Shrem
Did he get Austrian citizenship at that point?

Lennart Lopin
He eventually get, but the German secret police was after him. The problem is, he knew after walking into the embassy, he was known.

Charlie Shrem
He was going to be targeted, yeah.

Lennart Lopin
And he was known to the Austrians. If he had not done that it would have been much more difficult for him. Once the Austrians knew there was a potential citizen, it was difficult for the East German police to do anything; However, later they dug up the files, after East Germany collapsed. My parents studied their big, big folder that was put together by the secret police. There were plans in there to kidnap him and crazy stuff, and parts of the relatives who were actually spies on behalf of the government.

Charlie Shrem
Really?

Lennart Lopin
Yes.

Charlie Shrem
What did your father do for work?

Lennart Lopin
He was an engineer. He was an electrical engineer for shipyards.

Charlie Shrem
Okay, so he's not someone that East Germany would want to lose, that was the point.

Lennart Lopin
That's the other fun thing; He worked on Russian boats that were in the shipyard.

Charlie Shrem
Okay, so he's really someone they don't want to lose.

Lennart Lopin
Yes, correct. Yeah. Eventually after two years this ordeal lasted, and then we were kicked out. Actually, we were kicked out of East Germany by East German government. In a sense, lucky this was ‘84, five years before the wall fell. You asked me when I realized the system didn't work. I was a small kid. I remember sitting in the airplane, leaving East Berlin. I asked my dad, Why does it smell so bad in this plane? He said, "Well, they pump a gas into the plane to make sure that there's no one hiding here before they send it up.

Charlie Shrem
Did they really?

Lennart Lopin
Yeah, they did.

Charlie Shrem
The pumped gas into the fuselage.

Lennart Lopin
I think some tear gas or something just to see if anybody would be a stowaway in the plane, making sure that people wouldn't flee the country. Once we arrived in Austria, I remember walking into a supermarket there with my mom. The colors just exploded in my face. I couldn't handle it. I didn't know what this was. This was like a playground or something, but it could not possibly be a supermarket.

Charlie Shrem
That feeling that you had was similar when I walked into Walmart for the first time, when I got released from prison. I was like, "This is way too much."

Lennart Lopin
Yup.

Charlie Shrem
Sensory overload right now. I have to leave and wait in the car.

Lennart Lopin
Yeah, exactly. Yup. That's how that feeling was. That's my background.

Charlie Shrem
You grew up in Austria after that basically.

Lennart Lopin
I grew up in Austria, in Vienna, yeah.

Charlie Shrem
With memories of East Germany.

Lennart Lopin
Yeah. I think that definitely sets you apart in the sense that you appreciate a lot of aspects. You start asking questions early about society, politics, why certain things are run. You don't take things without asking questions.

Charlie Shrem
Are you following Austrian politics right now?

Lennart Lopin
I do. I do.

Charlie Shrem
What do you think of what's going on? This is a segue, but I'm curious.

Lennart Lopin
It's interesting segue. Austria is unique in the sense for the German speaking country.

Charlie Shrem
Very proud people, Austrians.

Lennart Lopin
They're very proud people. Very proud people. That has to be said first. Their politics is more conservative and national than German politics would ever be at this point.

Charlie Shrem
Really?

Lennart Lopin
Yes.

Charlie Shrem
Austria they're-

Lennart Lopin
They're very proud of their heritage, what they have.

Charlie Shrem
They don't like to be called German. They're not Germans. They're Austrians.

Lennart Lopin
No, no. That history is closed. There was, however, interestingly enough, there was a period, right after the first World War, when Austria lost its empire, when it lost Hungary and all the other ... Serbia and all these little parts. The Austrians thought, "This is never going to survive. We can't survive. We're too small." There was a push inside Austria to unify with the German people. Of course, the Nazis totally took advantage of that.

Charlie Shrem
Sure, they used that. That's really interesting. Right now, what's going on in Austria is there's this whole big scandal. You think the Prime Minister ... he's a young kid. He's my age.

Lennart Lopin
Yeah, he's really young. It's interesting to see they have a lot of relatively young politicians in Austria.

Charlie Shrem
It's a good thing right?

Lennart Lopin
I think so. I think so, yeah. It's a smaller country. There're ways to get into politics, become very active very early on. They taped a video. This video was sponsored by someone else. That's still unclear how.

Charlie Shrem
Yeah. It was a whole sting operation.

Lennart Lopin
It was a sting operation. It cost actually, I think I saw an estimate somewhere, 300,000 euros to put this video together on a politician.

Charlie Shrem
It's smart if you want to take down these right wing people and you just prove how connected they are to Russia and everything. That's really all you have to do is create a sting operation.

Lennart Lopin
It was a pretty clever setup, and took down the whole government. Austria, it more or less, always has these very fascinating things going on.

Charlie Shrem
Okay, so you're growing up in Austria. What brought you to this country?

Lennart Lopin
That's an other segue. After finishing high school I went to Asia for three years and lived in Sri Lanka for awhile. When I came back I studied in Germany.

Charlie Shrem
Wait, you can't just skip over that. What did you do over there?

Lennart Lopin
I became a Buddhist monk for about three years in Sri Lanka. That was because in my mid teens, after I had been really-

Charlie Shrem
What's the title for a Buddhist monk? His deliverance.

Lennart Lopin
Well, people say, it depends where they are, I think just venerable sir, or something like that.

Charlie Shrem
Venerable sir.

Lennart Lopin
Venerable sir, yeah.

Charlie Shrem
You could have married me.

Lennart Lopin
I could have married you? Oh, yeah.

Charlie Shrem
You could have been like the priest.

Lennart Lopin
No, actually as a Buddhist monk you can't.

Charlie Shrem
You can't officiate?

Lennart Lopin
No, you don't. This funny thing, Buddhism is so secular in a way, but it does not support ... They can give blessings after a couple is married, but they aren’t legally giving it.

Charlie Shrem
Interesting. You lived there for three years, you became a Buddhist monk. Why?

Lennart Lopin
Well, I was fascinated by the story of Buddha and I wanted to replicate his enlightenment. I was a very scientific-

Charlie Shrem
I think we all do, though. Isn't the idea of seeking enlightenment that you never actually seek enlightenment, but the journey to enlightenment is enlightenment in and of itself?

Lennart Lopin
Well, Buddha had this really master plan and explains step by step what you were supposed to do. I thought I'm going to take this very seriously.

Charlie Shrem
You're going to follow it-

Lennart Lopin
As the German in me-

Charlie Shrem
Yeah

Lennart Lopin
I learned the language

Charlie Shrem
It's not a blueprint though.

Lennart Lopin
Well, I thought it was so dense and defined that I can replicate it. I can follow the steps. You can write a whole book about the episodes in Sri Lanka. Eventually I decided to leave. I came back to Germany, studied computer science, and artificial intelligence, machine learning. At the time my approach was computer linguistics, because now of course AI is almost a statistical operation. In those days it was still not clear what would be the best push to move AI forward. I was fascinated by languages, always have been.

Charlie Shrem
AIl in the 90s?

Lennart Lopin
AIl in the late 90s, yeah, and how the mind works. I thought maybe language is a way to understand and get a crack at how the brain functions, and what makes intelligence work. The intersection between machines and minds, you can tell, has been a theme in my life from the very beginning. I studied computer science. Then after about three ... no, sorry. After about five years working in Germany in a software company I decided that Germany didn't feel very home.

Charlie Shrem
Why not?

Lennart Lopin
I think part of it was my upbringing in Austria. I had this Austrian vibe of feeling very proud of where you are, who you are and being in sync with yourself. A lot of Germans are still suffering this trauma from World War II. They feel very uneasy in their own skin.

Charlie Shrem
The guilt, or is it uneasiness?

Lennart Lopin
Yeah, the guilt. I don't know what it is, but it's-

Charlie Shrem
Even today?

Lennart Lopin
Even today, yeah. Not everybody, of course but-

Charlie Shrem
Do Austrians feel the same guilt?

Lennart Lopin
I don't think so. In Austria it's a little bit different. Austrians have done this clever trick that they thought, "Well, Hitler was born here, but he actually became German." At that point it became a German problem and the Austrians were fine if you will. For Germany, I think it's still an underlying issue. In many ways, the way society functions, I felt very alienated. I had a trip. I came over here in 2005 for the first time and fell in love immediately with the American people, the culture, even if you will, the friendliness, the climate of course in Florida, and the opportunities. For me, as an entrepreneurial type, and something I think I got from my dad, is the opportunities that you have in America are still incredible.

Charlie Shrem
You're working in computer science here. You moved to this country. At what point did you learn about bitcoin, about crypto in general?

Lennart Lopin
That was one beautiful afternoon in-

Charlie Shrem
Set the stage for us.

Lennart Lopin
It's I'm working out of the house for a small start up with a friend of mine. We're basically in a startup scenario. I'm sitting in the chair in his living room.

Charlie Shrem
What was the startup?

Lennart Lopin
The startup was an email marketing news letter company. That's what we were trying to do.

Charlie Shrem
You're sitting in the chair in the living room.

Lennart Lopin
I'm sitting in the chair with my laptop programing everyday. He's basically the sale's person. He's sitting on the other desk. Whenever I need a little moment for relaxation I go to Hacker News, which is a-

Charlie Shrem
Same, yeah.

Lennart Lopin
Hacker News, that's the source. Everybody with an IQ over 180 is on there nonstop.

Charlie Shrem
Hacker News, Hacker Day, all these sites.

Lennart Lopin
It's perfect. I'm checking out the headlines, and bitcoin flashed on there, of course earlier, but my fault. I didn't take heed, I didn't take notice.

Charlie Shrem
That's a very common denominator. Almost every guest I have says that they had heard about bitcoin at one point, didn't pay attention to it, and then heard about it again, and then that's when they gave-

Lennart Lopin
The second time. The first time may have been also 2011 or 2010. The first time for me was 2011. Early 2011, I run across this Hacker News, news article, I click on it, they're talking, discussing this bitcoin paper, White Paper. I'm looking at it, and mind you, in 2011 I had done some day trading in 2008, 2009. Trading stocks, all those penny stocks, this is not foreign material to me. From a financial perspective, school financial knowledge. I had an idea how the banking system worked. I thought that was actually accurate, but then it turned out to be extremely false.

Charlie Shrem
How did you think that it worked?

Lennart Lopin
Well, the typical idea. People put money into a bank, bank loans out, makes money on the loans, and everybody's happy.

Charlie Shrem
That's not how it works?

Lennart Lopin
That's not quite. The whole factual reserve banking, central banking, all of that was swept under the rug, the amount of power and the changes of gold standard, all of this. In those days, no. I come across the White Paper, I read through it, and I tell my buddy, who's a salesperson, I tell him about it. I say, "There's people mining this thing and they're actually making money." He's like, "Lennart, you're new to America. Let me tell you what this is. We call this a Ponzi scheme." I'm like, "No, no, no. This does not seem to be a Ponzi scheme. There seems to be more going on. They solved this Byzantine Generals problem, and I'm a computer scientistic." From my perspective, this is actually a fascinating breakthrough.

Charlie Shrem
Something you learn about in textbooks.

Lennart Lopin
Yes. Yeah, as not being solved. Now it's solved. This anonymous person has solved this problem.

Charlie Shrem
The way he solved it made sense. It seemed very simple.

Lennart Lopin
The whole play with this game theory approach, and mining was just mind-blowingly intelligent. That was really smart. He replaced the inability to figure out trust with a rat race between parties who had their own interest at heart. Given them a monetary incentive to all agree on the truth was just beautiful. It was just a great concept. We started, of course, taking our graphic cards and just throwing them at bitcoin like everybody else did.

Charlie Shrem
It's such an interesting thing because the Byzantine Generals problem is a difficult concept to understand why. The other day, on Saturday, I was down in Fort Myers giving a talk over at dinner to a group of people, about 40-50 people, about 55 and older. I'm literally sitting there and they asked me, "What is blockchain? What's so important about this?" I explained, I said, "Well, what was so important, was this thing called the Byzantine Generals problem." They're like, "Oh, okay. What's the Byzantine Generals problem?"

Lennart Lopin
What's that?

Charlie Shrem
Yeah, what's that. I said, "Well, it's actually one of the oldest problems that has been a paradox and unsolvable by some of the most famous mathematicians of the world. It was solved by this guy named Satoshi Nakamoto." Like you said, what it is when you have millions of people that have their own agenda, and their own financial incentive to lie and not be aligned, how do you play that against them and make it so we have this common system without a centralized party, and we have this common system where we all have to know we're incentivized to tell the truth and to be aligned. It's such an amazing, amazing thing. When Satoshi wins the Nobel Prize, or something happens down the road, it's going to be for that. It's going to be for solving the Byzantine Generals problem.

Lennart Lopin
It will. You don't think it's Craig?

Charlie Shrem
No, absolutely not.

Lennart Lopin
I had to just bring this up. Yeah, no, I totally-

Charlie Shrem
That guy is such a fraud and I'm going to get sued just for saying that, but I've been sued by worse people than him.

Lennart Lopin
I agree that the Nobel Prize would be for this solution that he found. That is pretty amazing and fascinating. Just like you said, it's not even easy to understand for people in our industry. Sometimes you hear the idea of fault tolerance, Byzantine Generals problem. It's not just that you have a node that turns off and all of a sudden the whole network is blocked. The idea is really that even if you have a malicious person, whatever they can do, the system still has to function. If you have below 51% of malicious actors the system is still supposed to come to a status of truth. That's really amazing that someone figured that out. Not just that. Just figuring it out in the paper is one thing, but actually coding it up in a workable first version and releasing it, that's another whole story.

Charlie Shrem
It's a lot easier for people to understand bitcoin when they have some of it, when they're holding it in their wallet, on their phone, their computer, a physical bitcoin, or something tangible. It was very difficult to get bitcoin in 2011. I started BitInstant for that reason.

Lennart Lopin
It was extremely difficult.

Charlie Shrem
It still is, but you've made it a lot easier to get bitcoin. As much as people want bitcoin online, like with Coinbase. Especially for our first time, we still want a physical manifestation of it, right?

Lennart Lopin
Yes.

Charlie Shrem
Your machines are an oases in the desert, or is it oasisis? How do you-

Lennart Lopin
Oases. Oases.

Charlie Shrem
Oasises? What's the plural for oasis?

Lennart Lopin
Good question.

Charlie Shrem
We need to look that up.

Lennart Lopin
Yup.

Charlie Shrem
It really is like an oasis in whatever city you are in in the Midwest, or in Georgia, and you're running into this bitcoin thing. Your machines are not just these ATM machines. They're physical manifestations of bitcoin for people to be able to go there and play around.

Lennart Lopin
The hand of Satoshi is reaching into mainstream. That's what they are. They're like a plate of cryptocurrency technology that's offered in a box. I always tell this story. It's really fascinating. Early days we had a couple of ATMs out. I was doing maintenance on one of the machines. All of a sudden a young kid shows up with his parents in tow. They were older. I think he was in his mid 20s. They were maybe in their 50s. He had this desperate look on his face. He didn't notice me really. He just ran to the machine with his parents in some really heated discussion. Then he turned with both hands, pointing to the machine. In his final statement of exhaustion he said, "Mom and dad, this is bitcoin." He was arguing.

Charlie Shrem
He was so frustrated.

Lennart Lopin
He was so frustrated having to explain, or couldn't explain it properly. Then they're like, "Oh," looking at this bitcoin ATM.

Charlie Shrem
By the way the plural of oasis is oases.

Lennart Lopin
Oases.

Charlie Shrem
I just looked it up.

Lennart Lopin
Good. Now the German learns something.

Charlie Shrem
There we go.

Lennart Lopin
German Austrian. Anyways, we have a lot of people who's first experience with cryptocurrency is through an ATM. You just walk up, you take $20, put them in, and you have your crypto immediately. Through the process, actually, you learn, because you have to bring a wallet. If you don't we'll tell you how to do that. We actually are one of those early entry points for a lot of people to get to know-

Charlie Shrem
It's the first impression. You have an obligation to make the first impression a really good one.

Lennart Lopin
Yes. Correct. Yeah. Then talking about that; One of our biggest concerns is actually trying to prevent people from getting scammed. I think at this point, with everything that we've learned and put on these machines, and the way they operate, I think we're doing a better job than a banking branch or Western Union, trying to really make sure that people who come-

Charlie Shrem
How?

Lennart Lopin
Well, there's very, very sophisticated scams out there, which of course we didn't know when we got started. The whole banking system is riddled with these scams, originating very often outside the country. I'll give you one idea, one story that I heard recently from one of our customers actually-

Charlie Shrem
I got to tell you about the pet scam after this.

Lennart Lopin
The pet scam?

Charlie Shrem
After. You tell your story-

Lennart Lopin
Here's this lady. She's telling me about what happened to her. She was contacted on Facebook by a friend of hers. It's a Facebook message she gets from one of her friends, which says, "Oh my good. Look, there's this government service that ..." Oh, no. Sorry. That was a different one. That was a different one. There's a government service that will give you free stuff. She expected a truck to show up the next day, but she had to do a down payment. No, the more sophisticated one is a call from the IRS. The IRS calls you up, Social Security Administration.

Charlie Shrem
Yeah, I've gotten those calls.

Lennart Lopin
The Social Security Administration says, very serious, your identity has been stolen and some crime, money laundering, has been committed in your name. You have to immediately get a new social security. Then what they do on the phone, they tell people to call their local police office, or to expect a call from their local police office. They make the victim Google their own local police office, hand the phone number over to the scammer. Then 10 minutes later they get a call, which the phone number looks like it's coming ... it's spoofing, right? It's coming from the police office and someone else will pretend to be a police officer, and organize the hand over of the social security card.

Lennart Lopin
Before that happens, they make them go and pay a fine of some sort, which of course is the scam. That's how it works. This impersonation of authorities, because people are mentally so primed to believe authority at this point, this is another topic for us in the cryptocurrency space. It's sad actually that they will, just like sheep, not even think twice. They are so afraid that they will lose their credit, they will lose their whatever else they'll lose from a government perspective, identity perspective, that they'll go through with this scam. Had we a, maybe say cryptographically based way to identify another person or another institution, I think that would go a really long ways.

Charlie Shrem
How do you protect people from this?

Lennart Lopin
Well, what we do is we stop people. We try to slow down. Mind you, the point, when you come to a bitcoin ATM they're completely sold on this stuff.

Charlie Shrem
Oh yeah, they're getting their Bitcoin machine.

Lennart Lopin
They have blinders. It's like when you go to the bank and you see all these scam warning signs you think, "Yeah, that's for other people. That's not for me." We try to break them down. If they're first user we make them sit on a screen for 30 seconds. At least they can't do anything else. There's messages popping up. We send them if there's any indicator this might be someone out of-

Charlie Shrem
Your immediate network.

Lennart Lopin
... immediate network, then we sent them extra warning messages. It's difficult to breakthrough to people who were at the last mile, if you will, of such a scam. Mind you, this is, of course, the minority of transactions. It's still something that the whole financial system is bombarded with and where compliance and regulations have created laws and behaviors that sometimes actually make it harder for us to protect people.

Charlie Shrem
Consumer protection is an important thing. Consumer protection is one thing that I believe in, and that it's a moral obligation for a business.

Lennart Lopin
Absolutely.

Charlie Shrem
There's also, I feel like, a place for self regulatory organizations or even local government organizations to ... like your locale, your local Florida government organization to do some sort of consumer protection. I don't know how that is yet.

Lennart Lopin
I think coming from the software industry I'm fascinated by this whole process. If you think about it we don't have a committee or a regulatory institution for web servers. We don't have an organization that creates guidelines for databases. What happened, and many now fundamental programs in our industries, through trial and error, in a lot of pain over many [crosstalk 00:41:56]-

Charlie Shrem
Those weren't money. Those weren't money. They weren't health.

Lennart Lopin
Well, I was thinking about this too. If you really think about it web service databases are integral to medical facilities, to medical devices, to banks. Obviously there has to be some kind of give and take. The industry software iteration is extremely fast. Law is not very fast. It's a different process. You would almost want innovation not to be handicapped, because it could come up with solutions that might help you and do a paradigm shift on the problem that you have, rather than slow it down artificially, because you want to protect people at this moment in time. There has to be some kind of negotiation between what we have right now and where especially the cryptocurrency industry could take us. I think in many of these instances, through cryptography, we could have a much safer more transparent [crosstalk 00:42:48]

Charlie Shrem
A lot of solutions, yes.

Lennart Lopin
Yes. I think this is what we see in the United States. There's a struggle, even on a political, policymaker side of things, to negotiate those two.

Charlie Shrem
We've had a similar situation, but before I get into that, I feel like governments don't want ... some of them do, but most of them don't want blockchain to solve their problems. They want to continue solving their own problems, their own way. Using it through blockchain technology could potentially rid them of some of the power that they have.

Lennart Lopin
Absolutely. I think that's-

Charlie Shrem
... even though they may be better solutions than the bureaucratic ones or whatever it is.

Lennart Lopin
The United States is, maybe in many regards not even the best example, but there's so many countries on this planet where once you're in a political system, which is a couple of families, they own the wealth of the nation.

Charlie Shrem
Control everything, yeah.

Lennart Lopin
Yes, and it's a very, very sad situation. For many people these are prison chains, invisible prison chains.

Charlie Shrem
Speaking of which, the scam we dealt with in 2011, or 2012, was a very sophisticated scam actually. We couldn't catch wind on it for a while. What was happening was when you go to BitInstant, you go to our website, you want to buy some bitcoin you go to BitInstant.com. You'd type into form field, you'd say, "I want to buy $500 worth of bitcoin," and you type in your zip code. It would tell you the closest location to where you could buy bitcoin from. Let's just say it was a Walgreens pharmacy. Then it would create a slip for you. You'd print it out or have it on your phone. You go to this location. The person at Walgreens would actually just scan the barcode and then you'd hand the $500 over. Then you'd get your bitcoin. What was happening was there was this website out there that was offering people to buy exotic pets.

Lennart Lopin
Pets.com.

Charlie Shrem
No. It was exotic pets. It was exotic birds and alligators and snakes, pets that are largely illegal in this country. These were pets that people wanted, but they couldn't buy legally. What they would do is they would go to BitInstant. Very King Charles Cavalier dogs, you know, pets that are hard to come by. They would create fake website, have pictures and names of these pets and where they [crosstalk 00:45:17].

Lennart Lopin
We have some of these pets here in Florida now running around in the Everglades.

Charlie Shrem
Yeah, [crosstalk 00:45:22]. What the person would do is you'd go to the website and you'd say, "I want to buy this. Here's $500 for this alligator." Then the owner of the scam was printing out these slips. People were going to the store and it'd have the BitInstant logo on it, and paying the $500. The bitcoin was going to the owner of the scam, not to the people. A week later they'd message us and say, "Hey, where's my parakeet," or whatever. "What are you talking about?" We'd call it the pet scam. We'd say, "Oh, another pet scam today." There's nothing we could have done to really stop it. We put on the slip the actual bitcoin address and say is this your bitcoin address? Did you print this slip yourself?" It was up to us. We actually did call authorities. We did. We had those people call their own police precincts. We didn't know what to do. We had all these examples. It was up to us, as a business, to do our own consumer protection for our own customers, even though they weren't directly our customers. We had to print on the slips, "If you're using this to buy a pet-"

Lennart Lopin
Be careful.

Charlie Shrem
It's a scam.

Lennart Lopin
It's a scam.

Charlie Shrem
This was going out to 30,000 people. They're like, "What are you talking about? What is going on here?"

Lennart Lopin
This actually sounds very, very familiar. For us too, we try very, very hard to make this first experience of getting your bitcoin a very positive one. It's important to us. It's dear to us, to our heart. This is why we're in cryptocurrency.

Charlie Shrem
How has ByteFederal growth been? Tell me about what's been going on during the bare market?

Lennart Lopin
Well, the interesting thing with cryptocurrency, and you probably noticed this with BitInstant too is there is a need no matter what.

Charlie Shrem
No matter what an underlying need.

Lennart Lopin
We had a discussion yesterday, actually on the Henry Raines show too. A little shout out here to Andy and Henry. The discussion was about the interesting niches that bitcoin fills. Like online gaming is, for instance, another one where a lot of people all around the planet realized that the best way to actually transfer money is using a cryptocurrency, simply because with cards you have chargeback, you have the fees in the middle. With banking, very often some places don't allow certain banks to operate, or whatever. With cryptocurrencies they would even get a discount.

Charlie Shrem
It's just easier and faster.

Lennart Lopin
The money would be there immediately. There's no chargebacks. Many sides give them a discount.

Charlie Shrem
People don't realize that it's not just for sending money, like one type of transaction. Complex business deals require large amounts of money to move and be split up. It takes time. I'll give you an example. Real estate transactions, settlement just takes days because you have to wait for the law escrow to get the money. Then it has to clear. You have to get the money and if you're trying to do these things quickly it just takes so much time.

Lennart Lopin
That industry is so ripe for a blockchain approach. It's actually unbelievable. There's a lot of these industries. I think right now they have those extreme administrative paper overhead, simply because they were able to get away with it. I think you will see in the next years, decades, the blockchain solutions encroach on them.

Charlie Shrem
Do you really think that?

Lennart Lopin
Yes.

Charlie Shrem
You really think we're going to have solutions with blockchain technology? Really disrupt how we do some things, or will it remain a novel fun word that people say that they're doing?

Lennart Lopin
No. Of course, I have to maybe specify this. I think there's a lot of hype around what simply a database could do. A distributed database doesn't have to be a blockchain. I think there is a few cases where, in my case I would always want to tie it to a public blockchain, to be honest. If I-

Charlie Shrem
Permission blockchain, private blockchain are scams.

Lennart Lopin
Very often it's an oxymoron.

Charlie Shrem
They're no more better than Google spreadsheets.

Lennart Lopin
Correct. What I see, what's happening with IBM, Hyperledger, and other projects is they could have done many of these projects with a regular distributed database. They could never get everybody onboard. It seems like [crosstalk 00:49:17]

Charlie Shrem
It has the keyword blockchain.

Lennart Lopin
With this keyword, blockchain, they have a chance now to build something that is still just a distributed database with maybe a little bit more structured ways to let other vendors participate in it. In theory, if they really would have wanted to build this, they could have built this before bitcoin and the blockchain ever came about. There's definitely that. However, I do think that you will have a future where a lot of the machines will talk to each other. If you think about it, if you think about how you envision a divine ... people say always, technology, if you don't understand it look like magic, if you look at our cell phones. You can see a future where you walk up to a house or a car and by just buying it on the spot the ownership, the title will be transferred.

Lennart Lopin
You're basically unlocking a car, getting into it, and it's yours. Maybe five minutes later you'll sell it on the market. Everything will happen in the back, with avatars, on constantly active markets globally, while you as a person just experience an extremely higher standard of living that will, to someone 500 years ago, look like you're divine. Doors open to you, and machines basically listen to you and do all your bidding.

Charlie Shrem
My friend and I, actually in Austria, we're trying to split a piece of land and build a few apartments and then we'll rent it out, just as a longterm retirement thing. Right now we're in the conceptual stage. I don't even know where to start. I don't speak any German. I don't even know the legalities, the banking, all these different thing. I'm lucky he's there and he does have some of that. As an American can I even own property in Austria? Whereas if this was all done through, like you said, a mobile phone app-

Lennart Lopin
Who knows how long this is away from us? 10, 20 years. Technologically we have solved this problem. This was one of my first scifi thoughts. I was thinking imagine what this blockchain technology would allow us. Someone is driving down the road, or the Tesla is driving down the road with someone inside, and they're sitting and they're thinking-

Charlie Shrem
The Tesla is doing the driving.

Lennart Lopin
Yeah, the Tesla is doing the driving. The machine paying the tollbooth too.

Charlie Shrem
Sure.

Lennart Lopin
Then he's having this thought about a new product or an idea. He has this brain implant, Elon Musk's nerve link, and he has this product idea. His product idea is being sent to the moon by some advertising agency. Maybe a prototype is created on Mars and someone else is buying the IP in Japan. All of this is happening while he's driving. By the time he gets home and opens his door, or the door opens for him, and he sees his big screen in his house, he can see all the micro transaction of people actually buying this product flow, basically. Just water on the wall.

Charlie Shrem
That's really cool.

Lennart Lopin
I think at that point you've replaced money with karma. In a sense-

Charlie Shrem
Social credit.

Lennart Lopin
In a sense, that's what it is, right? If I take my living time, and create value for other people, and I store this in gold or whatever, or bitcoin and I can later exchange that for someone else's life, or someone else's good doing, if you will. If you push this far enough out I think you will have capitalism achieve something that communism was dreaming of. A world in which basic needs are completely taken care of, but just you being a good person, and being creative and helping other people [crosstalk 00:52:56].

Charlie Shrem
It's like bitcoin. If enough people are part of the social credit system, and it's achieved its mass achievement, then you wouldn't want to do anything. You'd be financially incentivized to stay in the system. It goes to an interesting point, because we talk about why humans ... we go back to crypto being a social experiment. It's a good way to bring us all together. We talk about why crypto is a social experiment and we talk about what is a social experiment itself, and then why is it important. What's really interesting is humans. We're humans. What makes us tick? I believe, and I've read, and I've studied that there are incentives.

Charlie Shrem
Obviously the incentive to survive is the upmost incentive for us as humans. That's number one. Everything we do in life, from breathing we do involuntary, for survival. Why? I can't answer that question. That's number one. Number two, a lot of people believe that financial incentives is number two. No, I don't believe that. I believe that, that's number three. Number two is social incentives. I believe that everything we do, we do financially, that's not for survival, is for validation as human beings. At the end of the day, human beings, we don't want to die alone. We want to be buried in a grave next to someone else. I believe that a much bigger incentive than financial incentive, is social incentive. Having other human beings approve and validate us is a much stronger incentive than financial incentive.

Lennart Lopin
This reminds me very much of an amazing book I read a few years ago. It's called the Moral Animal. It's a book on evolutionary psychology. A lot of what you're saying is making me remember that book. It is very fascinating to look from a biological perspective, even at primates, and see how the social interactions are driving a lot of what's important to them. Simply because in the past, if you think about it, seeing someone having social credit meant a way of survival.

Charlie Shrem
Survival, yeah.

Lennart Lopin
It meant survival.

Charlie Shrem
That's my whole point. It used to be social credit was more important than financial credit. Now, you can be the biggest asshole in the world. If you have money, you're going to survive.

Lennart Lopin
Yeah. There's this episode, I think it was in the book where they said, "When females were sitting in the little tribe in Africa, and the guys were coming back from a hunt the question was; Either you date the guy who has the brawn, the really strong guy who just slaughtered the bull, or you date the guy who has a great networking effect who can pull in a lot of other people helping him.

Charlie Shrem
Interesting.

Lennart Lopin
There's an interesting play between people. I think money is a representation of the social credit in many, many ways.

Charlie Shrem
It's really interesting how that works out. I think that bitcoin taps into both. Right? Bitcoin and crypto, in general, taps into the financial incentive, bu also it opens up the ability to create this social credit network. A lot of crypto have tried to do that, like Ripple. I don't believe that Ripple is going to be able to achieve that. It starts from a centralized system, even though a lot of the founders of Ripple, who are my friends, had good intentions. Obviously when they leave good intentions are not transferable. That concept of having a social credit system is really where crypto is going to change the world.

Lennart Lopin
And the public one. I agree with you. I think it's-

Charlie Shrem
Yeah, it's got to be a public one.

Lennart Lopin
Right. I think so. People want to see something as essential as the currency of their nation, or currency of the globe, to be something that can't be tempered with.

Charlie Shrem
That's how cryptocurrency is going to bring about world peace.

Lennart Lopin
I agree.

Charlie Shrem
Lennart, thank you so much for coming on the show. This has been really, really wonderful. I think our listeners are really going to have learned something very interesting from this episode. If they want to follow you more how can people follow you?

Lennart Lopin
They can go to Twitter. I have my little Twitter universe there, novalis78. That's where you can see some of my thoughts. Other than that just check out ByteFederal, B-Y-T-E federal.com.

Charlie Shrem
They got to check out one of your machines, because they're going to be doing, and they already are doing more than just being able to buy and sell bitcoin.

Lennart Lopin
Correct. Correct. Among other things, buying gold for instance too.

Charlie Shrem
Oh, cool.

Lennart Lopin
Yeah. If you got to ByteFederal.com and check out what we have done, and our plans for the future. Thanks Charlie.

Charlie Shrem
Thank you. Hey everyone, thanks for listening. New episodes of Untold Stories go live every Tuesday at 7:00 AM EST. Links to our Apple and Spotify channels are in the show notes. You can also follow me on Twitter, Charlie Shrem, to continue the conversation. See you next week.